The Hidden Costs of Divorce — and the Third Door Most Families Never Hear About

Collin McKee

Most people think divorce has two settings lawyer up or lose. Fight in a courtroom or get walked over. My guest today has spent three decades providing the third door to her clients, one that's faster, cost a fraction, and leaves the family intact on the other side. And here's the part that this audience is going to find interesting. She also had to figure out exactly where AI fits into that work and where it absolutely doesn't. Because when your job is keeping a family from destroying itself, the margin of error is close to zero. Welcome back to the Endeavors AI podcast. I'm Collin McKee, founder of Endeavors AI, the show about how legal professionals are using technology to their best work without losing what makes them irreplaceable. My guest today is Renee Kostick Reynolds. She's a licensed attorney and Supreme a Supreme Court of Virginia certified family mediator. Owner of Colin Family Mediation Group in Fairfax and teaches the next generation at George Mason's Antonin Scalia Law School. She started her career on the hardest end of family law, child abuse and custody. So when she tells you that there's a better way through a divorce, and when she tells you which part of that work a machine can help with, she's not guessing. She's been there and she's seen the work. worst version up close. Renee, welcome.

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Thank you, and I appreciate you having me on the podcast today.

Collin McKee

So let's set to the stakes. Two people decide to split. The default path is adversarial. Two lawyer, two lawyers, two sides, a court calendar, and a meter running on both sides. And the bill is the smallest part of the damage. By the time it's over, the kids have watched their parents go to war. The savings are gone. And two people who still have to co-parent for the next 20 years can't be in the same room together. Meanwhile, on the operational side, the practitioner is running a practice like it like this is often drowning in admin that has nothing to do with actually helping families. Intake calls, scheduling, drafting parenting plans, session notes, retainer agreements. That's where this conversation is going to go live. The better path for families and the better path for the practitioners that are serving them. So you've sat on both sides, the courtroom and the mediation table. For someone who only pictures divorce as a courtroom fight, what are they not seeing about what this actually does to a family?

Renee Kostick Reynolds

I think you covered a lot of the things that people don't realize. I also, you know, I think that parties have no idea what a judge will do. Family law is extremely gray, a gray area. And you can kind of gauge maybe what a judge will do. But if a judge is having a bad day or has a personal experience maybe with the topic that they're going to be, the couple's going to be in front of. It it it's a crapshoot going into court. You are letting someone else make the decisions for your family. I think that is the biggest nugget here that people don't realize. That you are no longer in control of the decisions. You're no longer in charge of a schedule for your children. If a judge makes a decision, that's the decision you need to go with. They're gonna tell you what to do with your house, they're gonna tell you what to do with your retirement accounts. and if it goes to court, that's It's almost the least of your problems because you the lack of control is huge, but more importantly, it's the loss of your family. Like you said, your kids, your n your investments, your college funds you may have saved for. A lot of that is is very much depleted.

Collin McKee

No, it's a scary concept. so I did kind of want to start this with your path, because it it's definitely a little different. You know, you didn't begin in mediation, you started as an attorney in the child abuse and and custody cases, really high conflict cases here. So take me to the moment when the adversarial system felt to you that it was clearly broken. What did you see that made you think there has to be a better way?

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Yes.

Renee Kostick Reynolds

I think it was a gradual process. I think that initially back when I was in law school, which was, you know, back in the early nineties, courses like the courses I'm teaching now weren't a thing. We didn't teach alternative dispute resolution in law school. I didn't have that option. It's it w it's adversarial, it's litigation. It is you're fighting for your client. and so we didn't really have a a choice. so if I want to I've I always had a passion for family law. So when I did go into the family law arena, starting doing, as you said, very high conflict, child abuse and neglect cases. it wasn't necessarily that we were dealing with a divorce situation. initially, that's how my path started. It it was definitely more of trying to help families get the services they need and the education they need. and then it evolved into s into more of a divorce situation. And again, very, very high conflict. and after doing that for several years, realizing that there's really no place for families in court. it is a bad arena to air and resolve your differences because you will always be a family. And I tell my clients that all of the time. I don't care if they're kids or adult children and we're only dividing assets. they're still gonna be at family events together. They're those kids will get married, they'll have graduations, they'll have grandkids. and and to have them thinking about what that future looks like n if they end up in court.

Collin McKee

Right. So there's door number one, you know, stay out of the court system and maybe lose everything. Door number two, go fight for it and maybe you'll win financially, but at the end of it it's a loss. And you found door number three, which is mediation. Walk us through what's behind that door and how that looks different.

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Sure. So I I became certified in Virginia, I guess just a little education. There's a certification process by the Supreme Court of Virginia to certify you as a mediator. You do not have to go through the certification process. The certification process is designed for people who want to work within the court system. So if you want to take court referrals. However, the training program, I My advice would never to be to go to somebody who just hands out a shingle and says they're a mediator because it's a process. It's a 40-hour initial training process. There's an additional 20 to 30 hour training to become family certified. And then there's a mentorship program that is several months long. and you need to at least do five family cases. So, regardless of your skill set, it you need To do the family training in order to be prepared for the type of clients and the type of topics that you can be helpful with. It's a different way to look at family problems and to help families look towards the future. So the process itself is really on a very basic level, as far as our sessions go, is parties are coming into the room. Do we are initially coming up with an agenda of what the topics will be for that particular session? Then we do brainstorming, and I really help the parties, mediator really helps the parties brainstorm different solutions and what they can come up with and what they can think about as whatever the topic may be. Then we go back and evaluate those different solutions. And really, my job during that phase is doing the reality testing for the clients. you know, they're deciding on one topic or one decision. Well, does that make sense? Do you need more information? Are there tax consequences? So really helping the parties work through. And if they do need to see other professionals, then going to see other professionals to get those answers. and maybe inviting those professionals into the room. But the key to it really is that it's collaborative and the parties are working together to make the decisions that they need to make for their family.

Collin McKee

Yeah. I think that's that's key for people to take away because I think a lot of people just view mediation as there's one person who's like the ref or the therapist, and they just say, Okay, you're gonna get this, you're gonna get that and it's it's not that way, right? You say it's more collaborative in their process. and you also had written about the myths people believe about mediation. Can you tell us about that and maybe one or two myths that cost people the most when they they get this sort of process wrong.

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Well, I mean I think that one of the the myths is that that like you said, that somebody's making this decision. The traditional training for mediators is facilitative. So we are facilitative. We are not telling people what they should do and how to do it. They are in charge. We mediators are in charge of the process, the parties are in charge of the decisions. and so I think that having that myth debunked that we are not there to solve their problems. They are going to solve their own problems. I think the other the other piece of this too is that I don't think people realize the expense involved with the the litigation process and the idea of them both having attorneys. We always of course recommend to have attorneys to consult with and run, you know, run certain ideas that they're considering by their attorneys. And certainly once we come to a final written product, have them have that reviewed by their attorney. but but the cost is is very significantly different. in Northern Virginia, litigated divorces can cost anywhere from you know twenty-five to a hundred thousand dollars, depending on what we're talking about, and that's per person. the mediation process can really be, you know, it's done together, so you're not you're not having to pay, you're paying one person instead of two different attorneys. And when people are working together, the time, the time frame is much shorter. So we can probably meet five, six times and have all the topics discussed and decided. So there's a significant savings involved with that process. And you're not you're not in the court system either. So you're not dealing with the court fees and the filings that you would normally be if you were going to the litigation.

Collin McKee

So it's a pleasant surprise. Do you find that a lot of your clients are surprised you know, at the difference in the process as opposed to traditional? What what kind of feedback do you get?

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Yes. I think it's I think parties come to mediation and are you know, curious. Maybe people are coming in because they're curious about the process, like what is this and and how is this different from litigation? And then when we initially talk to them and tell them really what the cost savings are and what the process looks like. And and not to say that there aren't contentious cases and that people are coming in and they're collaborative and they're fine. At times, of course, they need a third person in the room. They need somebody in the room to facilitate that that conversation. So I always tell my clients: if you can make decisions outside of the mediation room, go ahead and make those easy decisions and save the more difficult decisions when you need somebody there to assist you with that process and help you have conversations instead of shouting matches.

Collin McKee

Right. And you've already kind of touched on the cost. and we don't need to get, you know, super detailed on it, but I think you mentioned to me the the comp the the comparison is what would you say in like a ratio litigation to mediation? Like a four to one? Like how much yeah, is that a fair?

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Yeah, that that that can, you know, even even larger than that, it can it can exceed really depending on how contentious parties can be. and even in mediation, you you know, it's certainly there are times when we might we might be able to come up with you know, let's just say there's ten ten topics we need to talk about and we can agree to eight. Well, parties still may need to go to court and get that final decision if they're not able to do it on their own, but they just resolved eight others on their own. So it it can be maybe a half day trial instead of a three-day trial.

Collin McKee

Yeah. And that's I mean, that's a big time saver. I mean, not just money, like all the time that you spend in court. Anyone who's been through a court proceeding, it's not fast. You know, that you sit there and wait for the process and this, that, and the other. So you can't you can't put a a dollar figure on the time that you spend and the time spent in that court system. It's not like it's a a privilege to be there, you know. It's it's a

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Right.

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Well well, and I think, you know, kind of back to your myths or or things that for parties to think about is it, you know, regardless if you're going through divorce or any other sort of legal matter, it is stressful. People do not give enough credit to the stress of having litigation hanging over your head, which could go from a year to two years, right? and to have that and to have court appearances and to to s have to like you said, sit in court and wait in court and and be at the mercy of the judge is really a very stressful experience. and I I I think a that is definitely something when people are considering which path to go should be a consideration.

Collin McKee

Yep. Yep. And it's just getting exponentially so 'cause it's not like it was a you know, it was a stressful situation to begin with, right? And you're just piling more stress on it. So a lot of a lot of good things to think about for anyone who, you know, might be at that point in their life, you know, we don't hope we don't wish it on anybody, but if you're gonna go through that process, make it a little bit easier on you and on the other party, right? Why not? so let's let's flip it now to more day by day practices to you the pr the the pr practitioner.

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Right.

Collin McKee

You know, you're writing a blog, you're teaching at Scalia, you know, sitting down in sessions, running a firm. That's all that's a lot. It's a lot to do. So where where does the documentation actually land after a session? Like the parenting plan drafts, session notes, retainer agreements, is that that you after hours or how does that process work?

Renee Kostick Reynolds

So the it depends on what parties want as far as session notes go. Sometimes party w parties want me to draft them sessions after each time we meet. so they have those for the next meeting. and if that's the case, then yes, that is happening, you know, after our session and going back to the office and and and drafting. the The day-to-day, so to speak, is, you know, that people are, if people decide to go with our firm, they're doing an intake form initially. we have an agreement to mediate that parties need to sign. there is for for my personal purposes, there is a summarization, right? There is a, okay, what is the homework that parties went home with? What did our session, you know, where did it land? What are the decisions that have been made? and where are we going for the next session? So I prepare in my case file all of that information that that is sometimes is shared with clients, sometimes not, depending on what they what they would like.

Collin McKee

And you're doing a blog as well that you publish pretty consistently, which that takes time there too. so is that fully on you from start to finish, or have you started to use any of the the tools that are available to kind of make that a workflow and get some of that time back?

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Right.

Renee Kostick Reynolds

I I've definitely have been using AI to help with the idea, I guess, of helping me formulate a good outline, right? On this is a topic. And a lot of time with the blogs or weekly posts that we do, I have to say I look and I'll reflect at some of the topics that came up during my sessions that week and and what were concerns of people. and kind of go from there on on what to post. so that's been helpful, but the organization and the structure using AI for that has really been extremely helpful in time management and and helping with organization also.

Collin McKee

Cool. So at least getting some of your time back with the, you know, the mundane everyday tasks, which is good. so I I think that I ask this in in most episodes, like, where would you say concretely that AI has no place? You know, there's you know things that that you do on a daily basis that has to be on you. There's not going to be a tool that replaces the time and effort that you have to put into it.

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Well, I I know people are using AI in my field in generating help generating ideas, maybe when they're with parties, if they're having a hard time. and I think that's great and that's fine to to do. I have not done that personally. I still feel like within my ex with with experience and helping people in situations that maybe they are stuck, being able to generate ideas that I've seen other people do, not you know, not saying Have you tried this or do you want to do this? But maybe saying, well, I have other clients that did X, Y, and Z and you know, give them several different ideas to work with. And I think AI is doing that for parties also. I think that is a good use of it because it's helping people develop a plan that maybe they haven't thought about for their own family. I of course I think there's no place for it in replacing the human element. of meeting with people and sitting in a room with them and you know looking them in the eye and really watching body language and where are they with their with their you know l stress level and how they're just really feeling about being together in the room and helping them work through that. and and again I don't think there's any place for it of course in putting in people's, you know, using it to develop, you know, financial plan for people or we're dealing with a lot of personal information that I think should never get run through any sort of AI generator.

Collin McKee

Yep. That's that's kind of what I was gonna touch on next. You're you're teaching there at Scalia Law, you know, these attorneys that are coming into it in the age of AI, where a lot of people are using this, yeah, for everything, honestly. You know, it's it's you know, I I hear stories of people using it as a a therapist, you know. I I'm finding new and exciting ways to use it every day and just daily tasks, you know, asking about how my yard is looking. But you know, when you're

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Yeah.

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Right.

Collin McKee

You know, when you're teaching these these young minds who are going through it, you know, are you seeing that come up a lot where you've got to kind of give that guidance you know, to the point that you made as far as sensitive client information and putting that into the tool? what kind of what kind of yeah, how are you guiding the the younger attorneys coming into this with all these tools available?

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Well, we this the the university asks whether AI can be used or not even in your classroom, in your papers. And right now we have a kind of a strict no AI policy. and I think some of the reasons being that the skills you need to learn are skills you are people skills that are important to I mean, for instance, during our role plays, computers are shut. They can't have their laptops with them. They need they have to have pen and paper and they have to be prepared because it's a barrier. It's used, you know, your computer, people don't really think about it. It's used as a barrier. If you're sitting there with two clients and your computer's in front and you're typing, it's a very different experience than if you're sitting there with a notepad and and connecting with parties. and so I I think it's useful once you have the skill once you have your basic skill set and feel confident in what you are. trying to achieve. and so right now and even with our papers, because we have our students write a paper. I I co-teach this course with an attorney. And the papers we also say we don't want them using AI in in that scenario. So it's I think it's very helpful, but I think that as a newbie, so to speak, you really need to get your feet wet without the tools until you can use them appropriately.

Collin McKee

Yeah. I mean the communication skills, unfortunately we see it all too often that our younger ones kind of are lacking the the exercises to, you know, build these skills because there is so much technology. you know, you see everybody down on their phone and even to the point where posture is going away because unfortunately we're all slumped over. so it's good that you're you're doing that. I mean, it's not something that we can avoid. It's it's it is here, it it's here to stay.

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Right.

Collin McKee

You know, I'd even say that there's probably good use in even, you know, role playing with an LLM for practice, but you're, you know, when it comes to that day for mediation, you're gonna need to sit across the desk from that person and have a conversation. So great advice. You know, I'm I'm glad to hear that you know you guys aren't sticking your head in the sand with AI, but you're you're focused on what's important, which is the interpersonal skills. And yeah, that that can't be replaced. So with that, if we kinda kind of come closer to a close, is there anything that you would give as far as advice for someone who's trying to follow in your path? You know, not not a laundry list, not 10 things to do, but one thing that they could start doing that maybe you, you know, you didn't learn until a little l later in your path that could help them get there get there faster. It doesn't have to be AI related, it could be any piece of advice that you could give them.

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Well, I mean, I think as far as AI goes, what I've really learned is because we are a small practice, and there's only three of us as mediators, having AI really help with your niche market, your niche market, and coming up with you know, I've used it to say, Okay, we're here in the Northern Virginia area, we are family mediators. Help me come up with a marketing plan that it would be really helpful. And that's been extremely valuable to to the last two years and and helping develop where we want to be and how to get there. it's been very helpful in developing you know intake forms and and forms that you can use throughout your practice depending on because I also We also use not only doing divorces, but also elder mediation. And so you're you're using different forms to collect different types of information for parties. And also developing help for parties to use, you know, sometimes they come in and they're like, we don't even know where to begin. so be able to provide them with tools. in order to start collecting their financial information or start thinking about what they want as a parenting plan. And so AI has been extremely helpful in those situations. Yeah, and I think as far as other advice on starting your own practice is really doing as much court appointed work as you can because that really does get your feet wet as far as what your skill set is, and having a mentor there or somebody else in the office that you can say, wow, I'm dealing with this really difficult case and I'm not really sure what to do here. because you're dealing with people and you're dealing with their lives and you're meeting them at the most difficult point in their lives. I mean, divorce, they say divorce and death are the two most difficult parts in your life. And so I think to be aware of that and to really be able to hone your skills with somebody else maybe

Renee Kostick Reynolds

who has been there and can can really assist in that regard. And then once you go out on your own, it's a little bit easier because it's you are by yourself in the room most times with the parties.

Collin McKee

Yep. Two good pieces of advice. You know, use AI to help with the easier, later work that's more time consuming and do yourself a favor and get into some of the tough work so down the road it's not as difficult or it doesn't hit you, you know, sideways. So well, Renee, I really appreciate it. This has been a a great conversation. where would people find more about you and your firm? We'll leave it in the show notes, but where should they go to learn more about your firm?

Renee Kostick Reynolds

Sure. So the website is colinfamilymediationgroup.com — Colin spelled C-O-L-I-N, just one L. And our I guess our website has a contact form on there. and I have in order to get in directly in touch with me, my phone number is 703-298-7702.

Collin McKee

Yeah.

Renee Kostick Reynolds

and that is a direct line to me. if you go to the website, there's three of us in practice, and all three of us have very different, not different, we're all attorneys. but if people have an interest in working with a male or you know, people can work with both of us, a male and a female if they prefer. and so that definitely provides more information, along with some great information in our blogs to help people kind of decide whether they'd like to. to go forward with this process. And we offer a free free consultation also.

Collin McKee

Excellent. Great. so and for anyone that's got questions on how AI could be a a benefit in buying back time for their firms, that's what we do here at Endeavors AI. we've got our website, you'll see everything in our show's notes. And if you enjoyed this conversation, invite you to subscribe or to share it with a friend. we try to have, you know, new, fresh, valuable conversations in every episode and we we put out a couple each week. So We'll try to bring more value in every show. And with that, we thank you and we'll see you next time.